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Hello photographers,
I am wondering how you all deal with clients who want un-edited raw media immediately after the shoot. Do you have a clause in your contract that excludes this? what is a standard turn around time? I usually say within 5-7 days, but I find quite often that people think because it is digitial they should get the files immediately.
Also, what do you do in the case of last minute shoots where they must have the media that day, and you don't have time to apply any of your workflow to it?
I am frustrated because a few instances for catalog and fashion work I have really wanted to do, and needed to do to round out my portfolio, both times the designer wanted the images immediately, and did retouching to the work that was appallingly amateurish. It makes me concerned that as their taste level grows, they may view my photographs poorly in retrospect, whereas, if I had been able to properly apply my workflow to them before handing them over, I could have made sure they were up to my quality standards.
One more question, how do you satisfy the demands for quantity? A lot of people assume these days that they should get 100+ images for a days shoot, because it's digital now. Whereas with film, they never would have expected it. I don't want to give them anything but the best shots.
I am wondering how you all deal with clients who want un-edited raw media immediately after the shoot. Do you have a clause in your contract that excludes this? what is a standard turn around time? I usually say within 5-7 days, but I find quite often that people think because it is digitial they should get the files immediately.
Also, what do you do in the case of last minute shoots where they must have the media that day, and you don't have time to apply any of your workflow to it?
I am frustrated because a few instances for catalog and fashion work I have really wanted to do, and needed to do to round out my portfolio, both times the designer wanted the images immediately, and did retouching to the work that was appallingly amateurish. It makes me concerned that as their taste level grows, they may view my photographs poorly in retrospect, whereas, if I had been able to properly apply my workflow to them before handing them over, I could have made sure they were up to my quality standards.
One more question, how do you satisfy the demands for quantity? A lot of people assume these days that they should get 100+ images for a days shoot, because it's digital now. Whereas with film, they never would have expected it. I don't want to give them anything but the best shots.
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New York City
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Re: The delicate phrasing of media turn around time
Sun, April 1, 2007 - 12:17 PMStand your ground Wyoming. I had this happen in a club once where they wanted me to take my card upstairs to the web guy and let him burn them to cd. I said no way. She was a lot bigger than me too. Then when I took them a CD a couple days later, they lost it. That was the end of that.
I never hand out unedited shots. People should plan ahead and set up the shoot before the day they need the images, don't ya think? I guess it depends how badly you want the work, but always discuss upfront what you are willing to do. There's always someone else who will come along behind you and do what they want because there are a million photographers out there. Just set a standard for yourself and try not to worry about it. That's my advice anywho. -
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Re: The delicate phrasing of media turn around time
Tue, April 3, 2007 - 11:22 AMI just have to say that there are definitely not a million photographers out there. There are a million (or more) people out there with digital cameras who think that if they can push a button, they're a photographer. And many more who think that anyone who can push a button is a photographer. I may be preaching to the choir here, but we all need to remember this and educate others about this.
I don't know what industry you're working in. But if it's the norm to hand over unedited files immediately, you might not have much choice if you want to get work and compete with others. But if it's not the norm, then you can make a stand and be clear before shooting that you need a certain amount of time to turn work around. The key here too is that it needs to be photographers setting the standards for this and not clients. I started off shooting weddings at a hotel who thought I should have edited proofs to clients within 2 days. But when I looked at the wedding photographer industry, that wasn't the norm at all. -
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Re: The delicate phrasing of media turn around time
Tue, April 3, 2007 - 4:28 PMXine,
I fully agree with your points. The problem for those of us trying to make money at this, is that a lot of the people willing to pay for our product don't know the difference between photographers and people who just happen to own a camera. My point was, it's sometimes hard to compete under those circumstances. Anyway, I think you know what I mean.
Good luck to us all.
:)
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Re: The delicate phrasing of media turn around time
Sun, April 1, 2007 - 1:16 PMStart always recieving a document from the client on what needs to done, and several drawings from them how it should be.
It would help if the client or in my case give me some written criterias, or a basic stick figure drawing on what needs to be photographed and how the package, or photograhic look or style should be.
In most photographer's case it is best not to show one's imperfections, that is STANDARD protocol. However if may want to consider increasing your fees or on your contract something in that manner that out focus, blurred images will not be considered a breach of contract in regards to image fulfilment.
Photoshopping fees should be stated on who is responsible for imperfections. In most cases photoshopping is extra, who is liable is a big problem which goes back to getting a sketch.
I guess everything depends on their Photo Skills level as an Editor and their ability to look beyond imperfections, and whether or not they will hold the imprefections against you. In most of my case they are often overwhelmed by the number of shots I have, and cannot make a choice.
In my case I am a staff photographer, photo editor, creative director all rolled into one, my client is my boss who does not have the ability to PREvisualize, or think themactically beyond the subject's basic concept. I have to make all of the creative decisions, and judgements.
I mostly shoot photojournalistic images, so I have lot of free rein....
good luck...
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Re: The delicate phrasing of media turn around time
Tue, April 3, 2007 - 11:42 AMthanks for the advice you guys. I think Lynn is right that I definitely need to stick to my guns about not letting unedited images out of my hand.
It's not even that the raw files are bad, but more that all digital files are usually leveled and adjusted at the very least to bring them up to industry standards for printing, etc. Just applying levels and b&w print points dramatically changes an image...
My problem is that I don't have a lot of catalog work under my belt and I'm new to it, so I've been eager to accept the assignments, and I guess what I'm reading here is that I have to be firm in advance what the policies are for retouching and turn around time. If it's a portrait package, I would never think twice about insisting that they must give me my standard 4 days turn around time... -
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Re: The delicate phrasing of media turn around time
Tue, April 3, 2007 - 3:06 PMit is away good to have samples of your work and different kinds of subjects you would like to work from, this way there is no misunderstanding what the client wants. In most cases, the client fulfillment should be very quick. Have standard lighting setups.Shoot a lot of personal work or tests to get your technique down, so therefore very little post production work is invovled. I would also preshoot and check for exposure before the model/client comes in.. -
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Re: The delicate phrasing of media turn around time
Wed, April 4, 2007 - 2:52 PMHow funny….
Right now, i'm taking a break from working on images from a shoot I had yesterday with Senator Dianne Feinstein. I shot 176 RAW files - portrait and candids. Her office was calling the studio at 7:30 this morning wanting to know what time *today* they could expect the images… as if. They obviously didn't read the turn around time in the proposal.
I sent them 8 files for a tease. The rest will be sent tomorrow. They seemed to be happy with that.
>get your technique down, so therefore very little post production work is invovled.
Ahmen brother! That is very good advise.
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Re: The delicate phrasing of media turn around time
Thu, April 5, 2007 - 7:14 PMPoints of order:
1) RAW files are the digital equivalent of film negatives: They should be considered your originals. Treat them like you would negs; protect them and don't let them out of your sight.
2)RAW files, being digital negatives, need to be post-processed in the same way that a film neg needs to be printed properly. Let your client know this and encourage the to be patient for a truly professional end product. Re-enforce the point that as the photographer you understand how you shoot and how your camera captures and that you can render the best digital proofs for them.
3)Your RAW files, being digital negs, are a source of future income. Once you pass copies on to someone else they can just as easily claim ownership (less scruples may even try to copyright register them). Keep them close for this reason. It is fine to let your client know this.
4)As the photographer you retain creative control over everything you create unless otherwise contracted (no no never never). The client does not have rights to your digital original (any RAW files are originals). Stand firm on this.
5)In touchy situations ask your client how they regard you as an artist and craftsperson. Emphasize the uniqueness of your vision and approach. If they respect you in this way they will back of the 'millions of photographers' crap and deal reasonably with you. If they don't then walk away, it's a shitty relationship and who needs those.
6)Turn around time should be appropriate for the nature of the job. Some jobs will naturally require more post than others. Use your best judgement based on your experience.
7)Let your client know that digital does not equal 'drive-through' photography. You can't just pull up to the window, order a shoot and think you are going to drive away with a whopper. As much if not more care goes into the production of digital if for no other reason than the fact that the entire workfow is in the hands of the photographer (and his/her assistant) from capture to print.
The key is respect. It is always best to establish it up front and define the parameter clearly. This will show you who is worth shooting for and who will try to rip you. -
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Re: The delicate phrasing of media turn around time
Thu, April 5, 2007 - 9:42 PMsmoke,
thank you for the points you made on RAW files, you're absolutely right - and that's good food for thought. I hadn't thought to express it like that, although that is how I feel.
So thank you for the verbiage. I will use this information in the future... -
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Re: The delicate phrasing of media turn around time
Mon, April 9, 2007 - 11:20 AMYou could also think of it this way. Film is quite linear, digital is not. A properly exposed slide is going to print pretty much one way (with minor variations). And actually same goes for BW, because you're capturing three channels of data, you want to be the one to mix them into a single channel to apply your look, basically the equivalent of printing in the darkroom, lots of interpretation.
And to get a proper digital exposure to look the way you want it to look, you may need to underexpose it by a stop, then bring that back in your RAW process workflow to come up with the image that you envisioned for the client. If you were to simply provide JPEGs of the capture to the client, it wouldn't necessarily represent your vision.
In addition, if someone else was to open your RAW image, most likely the would apply AUTO settings to it; and depending on the program they use, that would give them a different look too. For instance, most things I process in LightRoom, but for some things I use Capture One.
So there are many easy outs on technological basis alone, but the most important issue is that if you let clients push you around today, you are setting a precedent not only for how they deal with you, but how they deal with all photographers.
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Re: The delicate phrasing of media turn around time
Tue, April 10, 2007 - 9:24 AMWyoming,
Others have given you really good information here, but I'll throw out another approach.
Client want's images ASAP. You explain that you dont deliver RAW files, etc... But since they are in a hurry, you'd be happy to deliver *processed* images the same day with a RUSH CHARGE. Think of what Pro Labs used to charge for a rush job. Usually it's 100% markup.
In this case you would mark up your Digital Processing charge (not your creative or usage fee) - or just have a set rate for same day delivery.
On turnaround - depending on the type of work that you do, I think 2 days is a reasonable amount of time to get a client proofs, and then another couple days (after selections are made) to get final images prepared and delivered.
HTH -
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Re: The delicate phrasing of media turn around time
Tue, April 10, 2007 - 1:07 PMNevets, that's a great approach. I think I will add something like that to my standard contract. Thank you for the suggestion.
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